Author Topic: How important is water testing?  (Read 7067 times)

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Offline CT

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How important is water testing?
« on: December 28, 2006, 04:24:14 AM »
How many people test their pond water? What are the most important things to test for and how often? How important do you think understanding basic water chemistry is? Is it more important for koi keepers than the goldie keepers or equally so? (the reason I ask is my goldfish seem hardier and I don't worry about them as much)

Offline Esther

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2006, 04:51:35 AM »
I have had my pond about 5 ears now and have only tested it once. Well maybe the PH twice. I discovered the PH was high so I panicked and came to ask the people that know how to lower it. I have a pool so am used to keeping the pH level. So I am told it is worse for the fish to be having the PH bouncing around than having it consistantly high. So I didn't do anything.

Mostly I have been lucky I guess. I don't have problems with green water or much of anything else. oH yah, I do fight string algae from time to time.


Offline CT

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2006, 05:13:18 AM »
I think I've read somewhere that baking soda stabilizes PH. Mine is always fairly high since our water source is from a limestone aquifer. I don't add anything for PH either.
I have a lot of string algae this winter. I'm tempted to get a phosphate test kit just to see if that's what's feeding the string algae. Nitrite is zero.

Offline croft

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2006, 06:49:55 AM »
I only have goldfish and have never tested the pond water. So far have not had any health problems with the fish. If I had Koi I probably would test as they are said to be more sensitive to water quality. I would be more concerned, also, if I was at the max stocking capacity for my pond. So far so good ---- maybe I'm just lucky!
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Offline JoshS

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2006, 08:14:08 AM »
If you pay close attention to your fish, you should be able to notice changes in their behavior.  When they start acting strange, then test.  I've found testing the water regularly makes many ponders - especially newbies - paranoid.  Particularly when testing pH, because all the books tell you a pH of 7 is what you should try for.
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Offline Bartman

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2006, 08:28:01 AM »
I haven't tested in two years now.  If I had fish I may test a couple times a year ONLY if I had too many fish for the volume of water and not enough filter to handle it.  Don't mess with the pH as it will be nothing but a never ending battle.

Bart

Offline tranquility

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2006, 10:18:26 AM »
Plain old goldies are tuff...untill I got my koi I didn't know what a water testing kit was...However, just a bit to think on....A guy came to me this summer with a green water problem- He only had goldies....I was busy that day and told him hyacinth would probably be his best bet...I didn't ask how many goldies, what filtration he had, what his water changing scheldule was or even how big his pond was...since I had 2 other customers waiting...I really should have taken the time to talk to him especially since he bought the pond with his house...a week later he shows up with a jug of green water and asks me to test it....I grab my kit and start the tests....Ph was not even on the chart  :o...And, lordy when I did the ammonia and nitrites test I about fainted...they were both 1.0 and the ammonia was leaning toward the 2.0....immediatly I asked him how many goldies, gallons of pond and filtration...20+ goldies in an 80 gallon preform with no filtration...water changes were-topping it off as needed.....I followed him home(which I have never done before) and walked him thru what needed to be done.....and gave him one of my drs.Fostersandsmith pond magazines so he could order a good filter and some supplies to have on hand...he had never even used declor.....Oh did I mention that he hadn't even lost any goldies yet...they had stopped eating but, very much still alive.....so I guess now I would say Yes even with goldies testing is important...maybe not weekly like with koi but, at least by weekly......I mean even though they can live in such conditions is it right for us to make them.......and even though they are goldies please keep stocking levels down, filtration clean, and water changes up....if not the whole kit I would buy the ph, ammonia and nitrite....
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Offline Esther

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2006, 01:27:28 PM »
I think I'm lucky because I have a slight splash/leaching loss of water by the rocks at the waterfall so I have to add maybe an inch or two of water about once a week so don't have to do water changes. I am careful about keeping the fish load low and the water and bottom pretty clean. The water is filtered well both mechanically and biologically. So it isn't totally luck. I do work hard to keep the pond looking nice, both in water clarity and plantings around it. I have only lost fish to dumb things like Heron, one died when he got into the skimmer basket too long, and another died when he somehow got into the bog. So I don't think that is too bad.

As for watching the fish to see if they are acting strangely, maybe you are referring to flashing. My fish have flashed every year when I start up the pump. They must not like the changes in the water flow. It usually lasts for about 24 hours or so and is usually the same two Koi that do it. But I also understand that there are reasons the fish act differently that need paying attention to. Mine had begun hiding when the heron was hanging around. Smart fishies!! And the flashing can be caused by parasites.

Offline frloplady

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2006, 06:00:04 PM »
In summer I test the water every few weeks, mostly KH/GH as I have to keep that in line to keep the filters running at maximum and it can also affect the PH.  I don't worry about where the pH is really, just know how it interacts with the other.  High 02 can make for higher PH. 

I do think ponders of all fishies should check ammonia, nitrates and nitrites at least in the spring until the bio gets going.   They should know what is normal for their pond. 

Keep the water and it will keep the fish..but how do you know about the water if you don't check?  I know newbies can get paranoid about it, but if something DOES come up and then you test there is no idea of what is normal for the pond.  PH crashes can kill off the whole shebang, often caused by large rainfall/storms (which I don't have around here)   If that happens you test you ph and it's 7..is that normal or is it crashing?


Mary


Offline Mikey

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2006, 10:20:10 AM »
There are pond/koi hobbyists and there are pond/koi hobbyists.  This pond hobbyist has never tested his water in the nine or so years I've had the pond and more importantly the fish have never complained about their water quality.  Time out for a second while I ask them....  Hey guys.  Hows the water today?  See.  Once again no complaints....

I think a lot depends on the amount of water volume you have, fish load, biological activity and aeration and how much of a hobbyist your really are.  A pond with a small water volume is much less forgiving and needs more attention.

By the way, I don't add salt or do water changes either.  For nine years I've been adding water and not a single water change except when I flush out my stock tank to get rid of all the collected solids.  I probably shouldn't brag because I'd be quite embarrassed should I look out back and see a bunch of floaters..... ?)(?  Hey guys.  How are you doing?  Good, they're still okay...

However, I do have a thermometer that someone gave me at our pond christening party.  Sometimes when guests come over I will toss the thermometer into the pond and then pull it out and to impress my guests with my chemistry skills I will tell them that the device indicates that the ph, kh, nitrates, nitrites, 02, HdSo4 and water temperature are just fine. {:-P;; ;)

The important thing is to enjoy your pond and if you think you need to test the water then do so.
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Offline barb

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2006, 03:15:58 PM »
I have a small pond about 300 gallons, and I've tested once.   I just have goldfish.  I did lose one a few months ago, but he looked kind of funny, I think one of our cats scratched him.   :-\

I will test again in the spring, I'm worried about what this first winter is going to do to the pond.  It's looking a bit green, and there are some leaves that keep blowing in which isn't good, I do fish them out as much as possible.  I am learning as a I go along, good thing goldfish are hardy.

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2006, 05:20:35 PM »
I've only tested our pond one time. Between Koi Clay and routine maintenance all seems well.

Offline terri

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2006, 05:41:44 PM »
I havent tested this pond at all, it will be 2 yrs old in June 07.
My first pond was tested occassionally.. I found myself becoming paranoid, so i stopped, and just watch the fish.. They will always let me know when something is wrong.
terri
1500 gallon pond. Most residents are 11 yrs old. Most are Koi, with one 9 yr old bullhead catfish. Residents took a trip of one hr to their new home. We all moved to this home just over a yr ago. They love their new digs!

Offline Kristin F.

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2006, 05:57:39 PM »
A great thread, I have also often wondered why my fish aren't dead a long time ago .. since I've NEVER ever tested the water  ::)

Besides; what do you do if the nitrite or nitrate is to high??
-or ammonia?
-or ph?

It isn't enough for me to test the water to find out that there's something wrong and / or out of balance - if I do not know WHAT to do about it  o(
..water changes??

Last summer when I moved and build my new pond, I had my fish in a tank until the pond was done.
I introduced the fish to the pond just two days after it was finished because I was afraid they might get ill in the tank that was holding them.
-I lost a few from white spots disease although I did remove them from the pond and put them in salted water, as is described to be the correct thing to do.
-but a few fish that were contaminated with white spots were not removed from the pond, I decided to leave them in the pond to avoid stressing them .. hoping that they would build up their immune system by them selves
-and they all survived to my great surprise.
-but 3 fish that were removed and put in salt water died, only 1 survived..
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Offline CT

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2006, 08:10:54 PM »
I subscribe to the if it isn't broke don't fix it plan..however, I do want to know what my baseline water parameters are so if I suspect something is wrong (or the fish tell me, Mikey  ;)) I can ask for help to fix it. I know lots of koi people routinely test and there are sites that can offer assistance if necessary. I agree with Lawanna. Just because fish may tolerate bad water doesn't mean we shouldn't try to keep it healthy for them.
Kristin,
  I think the value of knowing what your nitrate/nitrite levels are is in evaluating the efficiency of your biological filtration. I'm just learning and I welcome discussion. It makes sense to me that if you do have measurable nitrite/nitrate levels consistently a partial water change and improving biological filtration would be in order (in the summer..what to do in the winter)? Ammonia, waste product right? ..look at why it isn't being used by the biological filter..then that brings questions of how to deal with it..water changes and ammonia binders? Decreasing the fish load? (maybe increasing plants in the summer)?..
   Ph..I wish someone would help me understand how it works. I can read it over and over and still don't totally understand it. I want to understand buffers and how to prevent Ph crashes that kill fish. I totally don't understand water hardness and how that works with Ph..
    I want to understand why I have string algae in the winter when I don't feed, filters, waterfall shut off..no nitrate, no ammonia..two 7 inch koi in 1000 gallons..
  And yet Kristin, the ones you salted died and the ones left alone lived..there is no rhyme or reason but still I want to understand how this all works even if I never do anything other than water changes.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 08:36:34 PM by Kay »

Offline Kristin F.

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2006, 06:15:53 AM »
Kay, I'm so glad you brought this up. What you said in your last post are my thoughts too :)

I do know now that the reasons why my fish had the white spots disease, were several reasons..
-they were stressed out from the moving and staying in the holding tank for almost 3 weeks
-the water in the pond was too fresh, a pond needs to cycle for 4 to 8 weeks before the natural biological balance is acquired.
-the fish stressed even more when they were moved from the tank to the new enviroment and their immune system was at the lowest..

In the weeks to follow after the white spots disappeared, I noticed that the fish stopped flashing and the water changed from pea soup to "pretty clear", I have a submerged pump and a skippy filter (a barrel filled with floor scrubber pads).
Algae occured in the stream and the plants were growing well.
The pond is 1800 USgallons, 5 small Goldfish and 3 smal Koi are residents at the moment.

As you mentioned Mikey (and LOL at your humour) the fish do show if there is something wrong - but for me the question is what to do about it..

Lawanna, you are obviously right regarding the overstocking and water capasity. The guy you mentioned may want to build a bigger pond? ;)
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Offline CT

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2006, 08:41:25 AM »
I've been doing some reading on several boards trying to understand water quality and water chemistry. I ran across some informative posts by Roddy Conrad that helped me understand some of what happens chemically in the pond. It's worth a search if this sort of thing interests any of you.
  Kristin,
    I'm sorry you lost some of your fish but glad you found the reasons. Experience is a great teacher. I guess I can't let this go until I understand how it's all supposed to work. It's the kid in me..why, why, why??  ;)
     I do think I found some of the reason for the string algae..maybe..then again.. :D
Phosphates are in my city water and they are supposed to feed algae so when I do a water change I assume that it adds more food for the algae, adequate sunlight (algae requirement), no active biological filtration in the winter, even though I'm not feeding my koi they still excrete waste products enough to grow the string algae. The water temp is too cool for my koi to be active and hungry enough to graze the algae down. So with zero Nitrate it must be going towards growing and feeding the algae?

Offline tranquility

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2006, 05:51:55 PM »
Believe it or not...We NEVER had any issues that I knew of until we got our Japanese koi...my muttly koi and goldies never had any problems....except for the time that lightening struck the pond.....Of course 2 weeks after receiving the Japanese koi they were placed in a pond that had not cycled thru...It was built just for them.....2 weeks later I see flashing....and this quickly turned into jumping....So out I went to purchase the testing kit.....Of course the first thing anyone asks when you have any problems is "Whats your water like" and "Whats your filtration, fish load, and pond size"......turns out I had ammonia and nitrite problems...which was remedied by water changes, amaquel plus, and salt..... then came ProformC for any parasites.....I had to take a crash course....Where as if I had done all tests as I should have...I could have saved alot of time running for testing kits,salt and amaquel plus...It was very hectic and frustrating.....but, I got thru it.....to date I have learned how to give shots, sedate a fish , how to clean and dress boo boos, I have learned how to use PP, and how important qts and hospital tanks are to have going 24/7 and ready to be used in an emergency.....I still consider myself a hobbyist....truthfully how many of you would be able to sit back and watch your fish die with out trying to save them.....So I'd say just getting used to what your perimeters are by testing the water is good...because you want to know what it is normally....not wait till there is a problem- you are stressed, upset and anxious to help your fish and having to learn it all then is a lot worse....learn now so you will be prepared for the worst...Just in case....
Lawanna
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 01:59:07 PM by tranquility »
Life is too short...... Live, Love, Laugh !!!!

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Offline CT

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2007, 05:39:56 AM »
Thanks Lawanna. I know I couldn't just watch them die. Some of my coworkers and friends think if your pet isn't warm and furry then it's of little value and disposable. Being prepared and educated is just as important to the finned ones as the furry ones IMHO.

Offline mekoi

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2007, 01:20:37 PM »
to date I have learned how to give shots, sedate a fish , how to clean and dress boo boos, I have learned how to use PP, and how important qts and hospital tanks are to have going 24/7 and ready to be used in an emergency.....I still consider myself a hobbyist....truthfully how many of you would be able to sit back and watch your fish die with out trying to save them.....So I'd say just getting used to what your perimeters are by testing the water is good...because you want to know what it is normally....not wait till there is a problem- you are stressed, upset and anxious to help your fish and having to learn it all then is a lot worse....learn now so you will be prepared for the worst...Just in case....Lawanna

Very well put O0 and thanks for sharing your experience ;)

We as koi hobbyist always say "you look after the water, the koi will look after themselves" @O@

Offline Eluned

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2007, 10:33:00 PM »
Routine water testing can let you identify potentially dangerous trends and fix them before the fish are harmed.

In an established pond, with reasonable stocking levels, separate mechanical filtration (to gently remove solid waste) and biofiltration (bacterial conversion of ammonia to nitrIte and then nitrAte: requires oxygen and buffers) and no new fish, there are two tests that I would recomend:
#1 - KH (aka carbonate hardness, alkalinity, buffering capacity).  A KH above 100 ppm means that the pH should be stable.  If the KH drops below 50 ppm, the pH could crash.  When the pH crashes, the biofilters stop working.   As long as the pH is above 7.2, it just needs to be stable.

#2 - nitrAte (the end product of nitrogen conversion).  NitrAte is almost 5-10 times less toxic than ammonia or nitrIte, but chronic elevated nitrAtes depress the immune system.   Plants will use up small amounts of nitrAtes, but can't keep up with a well stocked/well fed koi pond.  (The more food you add, the more ammonia is produced by the fish, and therefore the more nitrAte is produced by the filter.

The next big question is how to deal with problematic numbers, and before you can answer that you need to do some more testing:  aerated source water.  (When tap and well water aren't aerated, disolved carbon dioxide can shift pH and KH values.)

Water changes are not over-rated.  Topping up a pond to replace evaporation losses is no substitute for water change.  Evaporation concentrates minerals, dissolved organics and other solids and nitrAtes.  Water changes dilute out the bad stuff (nitrAtes, DOCS, TDS, GH).

If you are lucky, water changes may be all that is needed to replenish the KH/buffers (consumed by the good biobugs when turning ammonia to nitrIte then nitrAte). If the source water has low KH, you will probably need to adjust alkalinity with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate).  A target KH of 150-120 ppm is reasonable unless stocking/feeding levels are very high.  If the KH has bottomed out, always check for ammonia before doing a water change or adding bicarbonate buffer. (more on that below)
_______________
In a new pond, or during spring re-start-up, it might be wise to also check ammonia and nitrIte. 
If ammonia is high, use a simple binder like dry ChlorAm-X and dose according to the level of ammonia plus 20% (the fish will continue to excrete ammonia).  Ammonia shifts to a less toxic form (ammonium) at low pH (and low temps).  When buffers are depleted, the pH will crash (go acidic) and the biobugs will stop converting ammonia to nitrIte and nitrAte - the good news is that the pH crash means that the increased ammonia is in the less toxic form.  However, if you increase the pH without binding the ammonia, it shifts to the toxic form - bad for the fish!!!

If nitrIte is elevated, the good news is that the biofilter is starting to work on the ammonia.  However, nitrIte is just as poisonous as ammonia, it is taken up through the gills and reduces the ability of the red blood cells to transport oxygen (it makes them rusty).   By increasing the pond salinity to 0.10-0.15% the higher chloride ion levels will block most of the nitrIte uptake accross the gills.  It won't reverse existing damage, but it will prevent more damage.
_______________
GH - only matters if you are interested in raising asagi/goromo/goshiki, or want nice soft skin lustre in high end go-sanke.  The only way to drop GH is with a water softener or RO unit ($$$$).  GH has no effect on KH or pH.

pH - KH is the early warning system for a pH crash.  Mind the KH, and the pH will mind its own business.  The more folks test their pH, the more tempted they will be to mess with it.  Messing with pH tends to wreak havoc on pond stability.  Accept what your source water gives you.  My koi do fine at 8.4 - really!!
_______________
Kristin and Kay - Does that answer your questions?  I only check in here every couple days, but Lawanna knows where to find me :)

Offline CT

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2007, 02:55:58 AM »
Thank you Eluned. That's exactly the information I was looking for. Very helpful!

Offline tranquility

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2007, 06:55:08 PM »
Yep I know where to find ya Lynne..... ;)
And I have to say...Lynn knows her stuff...If she told me to go stand on my head in the pond and blow bubbles>>>I would probably do it....of course I know she wouldn't be soo cruel to subject the fish to such a scary scene :D :D :D....
Lawanna
Life is too short...... Live, Love, Laugh !!!!

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Offline Eluned

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2007, 08:13:10 AM »
I think I read somewhere that asagi like exra aeration, and lots of company.......   {:-P;;

giggle

Offline tranquility

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2007, 09:04:00 AM »
I think I read somewhere that asagi like exra aeration, and lots of company.......   {:-P;;

giggle
;D ;D ;D ;D
Life is too short...... Live, Love, Laugh !!!!

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Offline Jerry

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Re: How important is water testing?
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2007, 10:58:47 AM »
I have done exactly like Mickey. The fish are very happy and so am I.  I am not a detail guy and if daily tests were a must, I would not have a pond.
Good or bad, it is the truth.
Jerry
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Offline FrankJScott

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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2024, 11:12:07 PM »
Please try Google before asking about Top Product Site 88_595d

 

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