"natural pond"

[Athens_Ponder]

Hi Folks,

So, yes, I was naive and dug a hole (it grew to 17' x 14') built up shelves and a lip and figured, okay, get a liner and a pump and you are good to go.  HA!  When I went to buy the liner and pump he didn't have the size I needed so it was off to the Internet and the land of confusion.  I guess that's good in that I haven't bought anything yet and am now taking the time to learn learn learn.  My main goals for the pond are bird bath (running water waterfall into a 2" deep rocky beach for bird bathing), a 2-3" edge with rocks/sand for frogs/amphibs/birds to have access, a place to grow plants I haven't grown before, a place to let the frogs and toads eat bugs and breed, and thats about it.  I'm not tied to having fish.  If fish eat frog eggs then I'm totally willing to forgo the fish and use mosquito dunks.  I've talked to a local pond construction guy (he's built over 200 ponds) and he's almost got me convinced I need to add a skimmer and biofilter.  He's got a kit he's willing to sell me for $1800 (throwing in construction help - mostly for the connections and such).  Of course when I heard $1800 I staggered back a little.  Here's what I was prepared to do.

I don't know if we can list companies on this forum, but hoping we can, I'll continue.

I was going to get a 25' x 30' liner from bestnest at $400 (delivered), a Pondmaster Pond-Mag 36 Pump for $174, and and some kind of biological filter falls type unit (why do they very from < $200  to > $400...it seems like a glorified plastic bucket to me ;-).   All told about $700-$900.  I was going to paint a milk crate black and put the pump on top of it so it doesn't suck up gunk from the bottom.  I was even thinking about getting rotorflush $25? for the pump prefilter to keep frog eggs & tadpoles from getting sucked into it.  (p.s. not much internet chat about that product..anyone got any experience?).   I was going to have lots of plants to hide the pump & pumbing.   I was kinda hoping that was all the hardware I needed.  In the last couple days I've been scared that I was going to end up with a LOT of pond maintenance issues.  I do have a river birch tree overhaning the pond which will drop leaves.  I was prepared for skimming them out after work- should only take 5 minutes or less.  Since it's a natural pond (with no fish) do I really need it to be crystal clear?  Won't the plants clean the water and create some like of equilibrium?   I know I am naive in all this so please be gentle.  Do any of you have a pond without fish?  Do I really need to spend $1800 to have a pond I will enjoy and not curse?  Thanks in advance.  - Steve

[-Greg-]

Steve, I don't know if this helps or not, but I have been doing heavy research for the last week. Everything that I can find suggests that one of the most important items if you are building a new pond is a bottom drain. I don't know how handy you are, or how much you plan on doing yourself, but one of the members here (rocmon) turned me on to Koiphen.com, they have a whole DIY section that has detailed instructions on how to build your own, bottom drains, skippy filters, bio filters etc. I would think that you would be able to find a skimmer (Atlantic 4000 maybe) for about $110, then build your own large skippy for maybe $200, then a bottom drain and sediment tank for another $300, another $200-300 for a good efficient pump, $200-300 in misc. plumbing fittings and be done. One of the pond builders out of Las Vegas (Kent Wallace) posts many detailed pictures of his pond construction, from huge koi ponds to simple plant only ponds. I contacted him last week about a pump that he was reccomending (1/15 hp 3000gph and 1.3 amps), since then he has given me some great advice as what his opinion on my pond construction would be vs. allot of the other idea's that are out there. Anyway, here is his website: http://www.livingwatersolutions.com/
shoot him a email if you get a chance and ask his opinion, like I said, Kent was very helpful to me, and a super nice guy! And if you get a chance, browse the DIY section and the plumbing threads of koiphen, you can learn allot!

Hope this helps...

Greg

[Ky Kim]

Try posting this in Pond Chat, that area gets for traffic and I'm sure there will be someone to help you.

Kim

[Rocmon]

I too dug my hole in the ground thinking liner, pump, and have pond... Then discovered as you have skimmers, biofilters, and more...

A bottom drain is a good idea in any pond. As you say leaves will be dropping into the pond and you will have many plants that have leaves die and much else will contribute to gunk accumulating at the bottom of the pond. A bottom drain is the least labor intensive way to remove all that stuff. If your comfortable using 55 gal plastic drums, plastic stock tanks, etc to build, as you say "a plastic box" then that is a very inexpensive way to build your pond. As mentioned there is a wealth of detailed information at koiphen on how to build all kinds of DIY pond equipment.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51710

Keep in mind Koiphen is about koi ponds. They can have tunnel vision about koi pond construction, but there are not good sources for watergarden construction to my knowledge. Keep in mind the closer you build to a koi type pond, the less maintenance you will have.

Essentials; Bottom drain plumbed with 3"-4" pipe, gravity feed to a mechanical filtration device of your choosing. An external pond pump, turning over your water approximately 1 time per hour. External pumps are more costly to buy, but will save you a lot of money on electrical costs, as well as last you much longer. W. Lim, or Artesian make good ones. You can use a no-niche skimmer, a pool skimmer, or make one, or buy one. They will need some kind of filtration. All the water gets mechanically filtered before it goes to your pump. The pump can then push the water to your bio filter, then down your falls.

Avoid putting rocks on the bottom of your pond. You won't need sand for frogs and they are capable of jumping a good distance. There is a caveat on depth. If you build it shallow, say 2' deep then it's good for plants. At that depth raccoons can be a real problem, and they will eat your frogs and trash your plants. Deeper keeps the raccoons at bay but then you have to work out a solution for the plants. You may want to build a few areas of shallows for marginal plants—and keep those areas level or slightly sloped to the edge which keeps the rocks from sliding down into the depths of your pond. I have discovered that by putting my edging stones halfway into the water that the areas between the rocks and even behind them I can plant marginals there and they have places to grow and cover the liner over time.

Read all you can. The more you learn before you build, the less headaches you'll have later...

[Rocmon]

I have a little more time now... The birds in my pond (lesser goldfinch, house finch, chestnut backed chickadee, morning doves, scrub jays) tend to go for the falls at the very top. A single large flat rock with water running over it about 1/3–1/2" deep they can stand on. The doves also choose the main pond but want to stand out of the water to drink—so a rock surface close to the water but not in the water. Frogs and toads, I have pacific tree frogs and they tend to like shallow plants like azolla, monkey flower, water cress—near the shore plants they can melt into. The frogs will probably like to eat water kinds of bugs and I don't know what all will be taken out by mosquito dunks, such as damsel fly larva, water skimmers, diving beetles and the like. I would suggest you think about some kind of fish to control mosquitos. Mosquito fish work well but will probably also do in your frog eggs, as they bear young live and don't think twice about eating eggs of any kind. Rosy red minnows, or a few feeder goldfish may be a cheaper and less harmful means of control. At 12 cents each @ Petsmart they will be much cheaper too.

I suspect your "pond guy" is willing to sell you an Aquascapes pond, gravel bottom and all.

Feel free to list any brand or forum on this forum—they are about educating everyone here not just the sponsors choices.

Your pump choice being a submersible will cost you more in the long run. You mentioned not putting it on the bottom cause you don't want to suck up the gunk. When do you think that gunk is going to go away? Get bottom drain, and don't build pond without it. Never heard about a rotor flush. The frogs and the like should lay their eggs near shore in the algae or other plant life they can attach and hide the eggs in. You don't need any plants to hide the plumbing—a skimmer goes at the side of the pond, and the bottom drain is plumbed under the liner—all the plumbing is out side of the pond—even the pump. A Wave 1/8 will give you almost 4000 gph at 3.5' of head and at 215 watts, compare that with your other pump choices. If they can't give you a performance curve look for another pump.

If you do a good bottom drain and a vortex filter of some kind that should be rather low maintenance. The skimmer could also be plumbed into that vortex, especially if you were to do a micro-screen. That leaves minimal maintenance. Then a good sized stock tank biofilter with a good media choice and your maintenance should be minimal compared to most. Ask your "pond guy" about cleaning the Aquascapes pond, like the annual drain and powerwash... (wonder what that does to the wildlife?) and the rinsing of the not very light lava rock in their biofilter... (sorry, jumping to conclusions about your pond guy)

You might want to P.M. Sean about his water lily ponds and what the special needs are for them. I have fish and like them (GF, minnows, rosy reds.) I don't know about doing a pond with just plants that doesn't get anaerobic yuk without adequate filtration. Mosquito dunks aren't cheap, and BT effects more than just mosquitos.

There are great forums about building ponds mostly centered around koi. Take the good information from those to build a low maintenance pond. You may want fish later, maybe not. This particular forum is not the best place to learn about pond construction—just the nature of the forum. Koiphen, Koishack, are a couple of active construction places that get into the nitty gritty of construction—they are koi oriented so keep that in mind.

The better you build your pond, the less time you'll spend cleaning it...

[-Greg-]

Rocmon, here is a link to the preformance curves for the Wave pumps.

http://www.adamsaquatics.com/adams_aquatics_2_027.htm

I am going to use the Wave 1/15, it flows 3000 gph at 3.4' of head, and burns only 1.3 amps! This comes out to about $14.00 per month for me here in So Cal! Not to hijack, but thanks Rocmon for the advice, and the link to koiphen!

Greg

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